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#1 Piebald vs. Double dapple
libby Posted on: 2006/10/1 11:16
Ok, now here is one humdinger of a question. Someone (I will keep the name anonymous) that owns a Dachshund keeps telling me that I need to breed one of my girls to her dog... that he throws beautiful dapple gene. Now is anyone else catching this??? This dog is a red, that's all, that's it. He MAY carry for pie, actually I think he does. He sired a litter with another red and all the puppies were born looking like what I would call double dapples, but could've been dappled pies. I was trying to tell her that both dogs must have a hidden dapple somewhere, that it is common with the reds. I told her that one of them HAD to have dappling on them somewhere to have a litter like that. Anyway, this is so hard to type out b/c it's so confusing trying to explain her point of view.... She was saying that "show breeders" and AKC are saying now that the Piebald pattern actually was derived from Double dapple and that dogs weren't allowed to have ticking b/c it was a type of dappling???? She was explaining to me how a certain breeder she had gotten some dapples from would have a double dapple on occasion with these two she bred that were solid. Now I was holding my tongue b/c I think all of this is so idiodic that I can't stand it. But I have tried to explain about Piebald being recessive and that my girls don't carry for Piebald, etc, etc, etc... and she is still trying to say that I can get Oscar's color (Double dapple) by using Sam (her red dog). Sam is red, not dapple (unless he is hiding a dapple somewhere). This would lead me to believe that the previous litter of pups were dappled pies (unless the bitch got with a different male). To me, and what I think that I know to be correct... I could only get a dd by breeding two dapples. This is the way it is! And as far as that Piebald theory, if Pie was derived from DD then why in the heck do we breed two Pies together and get physically sound puppies as opposed to deformed ones as the dd???? Someone calm me down, this has me pretty ticked off. It seems simple genetics to me... some people just don't listen!


#2 Re: Piebald vs. Double dapple
Posted on: 2006/10/1 11:21
LOL!!! You got me Libby..They say the male has to have piebald in his background to have piebald pups..Anyway thats what I was told but about the dd I havent the slightest clue!Dont even know what I was told about the piebald is true LOL


#3 Re: Piebald vs. Double dapple
Clan Haggart Posted on: 2006/10/1 13:13
Yes to get double dapples you have to have 2 dapple parents it can not be carried. Reds can be mismarked if at birth the dappling wasn't spotted as it may have been a small spot on the pups belly or the breeder was wrongly under the impression that the gene disappeared when the dappling does.

Have you seen the pups or pics Libby? A Dapple Pie from what I can gather will always have a white tip to the tail and have solid patches of colour as well as dappled patches on a white background and may or may not have ticking,little flecks of colour on the white parts.

I can not figure out how dappling and ticking can be the same thing as they look completely different.

As for pie being carried without showing I wouldn't know.

I hope you get an answer from somewhere to clear this up.

Rhona


#4 Re: Piebald vs. Double dapple
Eridox Posted on: 2006/10/1 14:54
"This dog is a red, that's all, that's it."

That's the problem with mixing dapple with the ASPS and ESPS patterns; sometimes you can't tell dappling is there at all until you have an "oops" on your hands (unexpectedly create a double dapple).

"I told her that one of them HAD to have dappling on them somewhere to have a litter like that."

For a few ASPSes and most ESPSes that are dappled, a person will see absolutely no dappling on them and would therefore wrongly assume they're not dapples.

"She was saying that "show breeders" and AKC are saying now that the Piebald pattern actually was derived from Double dapple and that dogs weren't allowed to have ticking b/c it was a type of dappling????"

Smoking something!

"I could only get a dd by breeding two dapples. This is the way it is!"

Yep.

"Now I was holding my tongue b/c I think all of this is so idiodic that I can't stand it."

<g>

"that he throws beautiful dapple gene."

Except that dapple isn't a gene. ;)

"if Pie was derived from DD then why in the heck do we breed two Pies together and get physically sound puppies as opposed to deformed ones as the dd????"

Partis aren't always physically sound. Some are deaf and/or hearing impaired, for instance some pie cockers and many exwhite dalmations. It all has to do with lack of pigmentation in the inner ear.

"Someone calm me down, this has me pretty ticked off. It seems simple genetics to me... some people just don't listen!"

Welcome to the wide world of "puppy producers". ;)


#5 Re: Piebald vs. Double dapple
libby Posted on: 2006/10/1 16:57
She just keeps saying "dapple gene" and the more I try to explain it to her the more irritated I become. She is positive that she is right, and to me it's just obsurd! About the piebald issue, I know that there are some party colors with issues, but it seems a far far cry from what we see in the dd breedings. I mean, how in all reality could this remotely be true, that pie derives from dd? Just way far away from common sense, let alone genetic reasoning. I think that the litter was probably dappled pie, but doesn't matter now. None of them know what the heck they are doing. She has a new litter for sale now that she is calling them all dapples, and not a dapple on any of them. She must be saying that b/c the sire is dappled which in her mind would make them all carry the dapple gene, hehehe. Who knows! So frustrating though. Try and talk simple things and look what I get, lol!

When I said Sam was a red, that's all that's it... I know that there is a possibility that he is dapple. Don't know where he came from or anything, and you sure can't trust what it is I'm hearing. But I was simply trying to get them to understand that those puppies could not even be what they are if he did not carry for pie and if one of the parents was not dappled and they just didn't know it. Of course the dam is a clear red with a white spot on her chest... they have her registered as a wheaton piebald, LOL. Anyway, it's like talking to a brick wall!!!


#6 Re: Piebald vs. Double dapple
Eridox Posted on: 2006/10/1 17:40
"About the piebald issue, I know that there are some party colors with issues, but it seems a far far cry from what we see in the dd breedings."

Right, in dachsies that definitely seems to be the case.

"I mean, how in all reality could this remotely be true, that pie derives from dd? Just way far away from common sense, let alone genetic reasoning. I think that the litter was probably dappled pie, but doesn't matter now. But I was simply trying to get them to understand that those puppies could not even be what they are if he did not carry for pie and if one of the parents was not dappled and they just didn't know it."

I hear ya!

"Of course the dam is a clear red with a white spot on her chest... they have her registered as a wheaton piebald, LOL. Anyway, it's like talking to a brick wall!!!"





I feel sorry for the pups those kind of people produce, not to mention their unknowing customers.


#7 Re: Piebald vs. Double dapple
FrostyDachs Posted on: 2006/10/1 18:32
Ok, I thought having a little white on black/tans or reds or even choc/tans was a fairly common occurance. But if this red dog with a white spot on her chest is piebald does that mean all my pups with white spots, flecks, toe tips are piebalds? None of the parents in either litter have any white on them what so ever. Nor do they have any piebalds in their pedigrees. Check out the spots in question and tell me what you all think.

In Tasha's litter there is Tipper and Shauna...

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In Katie's litter there is Coffee, Star and Desmond (one of each color)...

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